A few challenges to pro-AR guests

[Merlin]

Hello all ARA's. I do hope you'll be able to provide a worthwhile argument for me and others here at PETA-sucks. The following are questions which, to my knowledge, have gone largely unanswered by the ARA community. You don't need to answer all of them, I wouldn't want to strain your brains, but please, don't just resort to swearing and insults, and don't just throw a bunch of links at us and hope we'll be stupid enough to just read the


1. If eating meat is unnatural (and therefore we shouldn't eat it) since we can't harvest it by hand and can't eat it raw (never mind that we actually CAN, and that other animals are known to use tools to catch prey), then why is it okay to eat grains (which, when not cooked and processed, are just grass), soy (which in many cases must be cooked or fermented), and other processed plant foods?

2. Sure, rates of obesity, diabetes, cancer, and heat disease have skyrocketed in the past century. Also, rates of meat consumption have gone up. However, wouldn't other foods whose rates of consumption have gone up, such as; refined sugar, soft drinks, white flour, artificial colors and flavors, synthetic food dyes, artificial preservatives, deep-fried foods (in general), and other similar items probably be doing much more to cause those diseases than meat ever could?

3. Aren't the people who film acts of abuse at farming operations for videos like "Meet Your Meat" and that MFA video from earlier this year JUST as guilty as the perpetrators for letting it continue for as long as it does (in the MFA video's case, it was four weeks) instead of immediately reporting the abusers to the supervisors and other relevant authorities? Seems to me like they just want their tear-jerking video instead of actually wanting to help animals in need.

3.5. What proof do you have to assume that these cases of abuse reflect standard, normal practices in the meat, dairy, egg, and other industries that use animals?

4. What proof do you have that any person can adjust to a vegan diet with little to no ill effects?

5. What is the point of 'substitutes'? If we weren't meant to eat meat,  or milk, or eggs, then why are there replacements for them? Sure, you  could say it's for those who are adjusting, but all too often I hear  arguments that you don't have to gradually adjust to veganism, or  arguments that all of the animal based products are completely  unnatural and thus, unnecessary. It just seems stupid to me that milk  is supposedly unnatural, and that we shouldn't drink it, and yet,  there's an alternative to it.

I may add more questions later. P-S pals, feel free to add any questions or add to any existing ones (I will edit this post with them). However, I would prefer the questions to be general and not focused specifically on any one issue (for example, the Odessa/Midland zip code fiasco).

[Titties 'n Beer]

5. What is the point of 'substitutes'? If we weren't meant to eat meat, or milk, or eggs, then why are there replacements for them? Sure, you could say it's for those who are adjusting, but all too often I hear arguments that you don't have to gradually adjust to veganism, or arguments that all of the animal based products are completely unnatural and thus, unnecessary. It just seems stupid to me that milk is supposedly unnatural, and that we shouldn't drink it, and yet, there's an alternative to it.

[Merlin]

Ah crap. I thought it would let me edit. Can a mod put milfncookies's question in there, maybe?

[Mel]

Hey Merlin - don't worry about the whole zip code spiel. They've answered that one already IMHO - they don't pay attention when they try to prove "evidence."

That said, on question number three, you need to add filming stuff at circuses and labs and not stopping cruelty. They would manipulate that one to say that maybe it doesn't happen at all farms, but it does all circuses, etc.

And, what proof do they have that ounce for ounce soy is better for them overall? Most places I've read say that you'd have to consume more soy products to get the same amount of protein found in a serving of meat.

[Lucy Glitters]

Probably one of my biggest questions is how a HEALTHY, BALANCED vegetarian/vegan diet can be shown to be still significantly healthier than a HEALTHY, BALANCED omnivorous diet. All this of course in conjuction with other requisites, such as exercise and proper medical care. I've seen tired arguments against red meat, processed foods, and the ilk that I agree with yet the more preachy vegans still insist that they are proof that a vegan diet is healthier than one that includes animal products. From my knowledge, we can gain the same amounts of nutrients from both diets (albeit it may be more difficult in a vegan one) and yet one is still healthier. Why? In what ways?

[Jeni]

YAWN.............

[Bazinga!!]

2. Sure, rates of obesity, diabetes, cancer, and heat disease have skyrocketed in the past century. Also, rates of meat consumption have gone up. However, wouldn't other foods whose rates of consumption have gone up, such as; refined sugar, soft drinks, white flour, artificial colors and flavors, synthetic food dyes, artificial preservatives, deep-fried foods (in general), and other similar items probably be doing much more to cause those diseases than meat ever could?

Two part name: PAUL WATSON...

is a vegan.. go figure..

[Mel]

YAWN.............

Would you please enlighten us as to why this is yawn worthy? We've been more than happy to answer your questions, so here are a few of ours. We'd like to hear your answers.

[Jeni]

From what I can see you don't get that many ARA's visiting here and being all too ready to answer questions.
You guys don't really make this the kind of place that ARA's want to hang out.
If you really want to genuinely know answers to these questions then maybe you'll have to visit "their" forums.

[Bazinga!!]

From what I can see you don't get that many ARA's visiting here and being all too ready to answer questions.
You guys don't really make this the kind of place that ARA's want to hang out.
If you really want to genuinely know answers to these questions then maybe you'll have to visit "their" forums.

We've done that.. at least here, they don't get wiped off the face of the earth for being a vegan or an ARA. On PeTA forums, your post is up 5 minutes before you're deleted and banned. They're much less tolerant than this board seems to be.

And don't forget about good ole' Bea Elliots blog.. that was a nightmare. The illiterates still haunt me in my sleep.

[Mel]

From what I can see you don't get that many ARA's visiting here and being all too ready to answer questions.
You guys don't really make this the kind of place that ARA's want to hang out.
If you really want to genuinely know answers to these questions then maybe you'll have to visit "their" forums.

I know that you will not like the truth, but here it is:

1. We do post regularly on "their" forums and are attacked even if we ask simple and genuine questions that challenge their beliefs. There is one person I know of - Bea, who absolutely REFUSES to answer a simple question of "Why do you think that an animal that is many times larger and more powerful than a human would NOT attack if provoked enough - even with a lot of training?"

I've been personally attacked and called a troll, antagonist, liar, and personally attacked as stupid, moronic and idiot - all for a simple question or saying that I believe they're wrong.


Oh, and Bea has even made it clear that if one of her minions attacks a someone who doesn't support her cause - even if unprovoked - they are not considered trolls. But you're someone with a dissenting POV, even if you state it in a proper form, you're a troll and attacker. Here at least  you get a chance - you debate diplomatically, you get treated with respect. You go and automatically attack, you're going to hear about it.

2. It's hard to be nice to any ARA when they are post and runners or antagonists on this board - you are one of the very few exceptions who has given civil debate, which is something I respect.

3. The responses we get from many ARA's - and I've caught you doing this one time - is the same lockstep responses we get from PETA, "you're being cruel to the animal," "It's just wrong to eat meat because you kill an animal," "Your diet is cruel," etc. We rarely get a simple, honest and from the heart response from an ARA, and that I believe is what Merlin is really wanting - as do all of us.

This is what I've observed being a member here now for several months. I hope you understand that we DO TRY to get the opposite POV and visit their site, but we're treated as bad as it can get here if not worse, which usually is the case with ARAs.

We've been open to the other side - why can't others on your side be such and not decree from the get go we're trolls and delete anything we post?

[Jeni]

1. If eating meat is unnatural (and therefore we shouldn't eat it) since we can't harvest it by hand and can't eat it raw (never mind that we actually CAN, and that other animals are known to use tools to catch prey), then why is it okay to eat grains (which, when not cooked and processed, are just grass), soy (which in many cases must be cooked or fermented), and other processed plant foods?

I don't think it is unnatural to eat meat.

2. Sure, rates of obesity, diabetes, cancer, and heat disease have skyrocketed in the past century. Also, rates of meat consumption have gone up. However, wouldn't other foods whose rates of consumption have gone up, such as; refined sugar, soft drinks, white flour, artificial colors and flavors, synthetic food dyes, artificial preservatives, deep-fried foods (in general), and other similar items probably be doing much more to cause those diseases than meat ever could?

Most definitely.

3. Aren't the people who film acts of abuse at farming operations for videos like "Meet Your Meat" and that MFA video from earlier this year JUST as guilty as the perpetrators for letting it continue for as long as it does (in the MFA video's case, it was four weeks) instead of immediately reporting the abusers to the supervisors and other relevant authorities? Seems to me like they just want their tear-jerking video instead of actually wanting to help animals in need.

Yes - I do think this is the wrong way to go about prosecuting guilty people of heinous acts of cruelty and prolonging the suffering needlessly.

3.5. What proof do you have to assume that these cases of abuse reflect standard, normal practices in the meat, dairy, egg, and other industries that use animals?

I don't have proof that this reflects normal practices in the USA, but this is the norm in Spain at the moment.

4. What proof do you have that any person can adjust to a vegan diet with little to no ill effects?

No proof - again.
I have a friend that started eating meat again because her vegetarian diet was making her ill. Each body is different though and I think anyone considering a vegan diet should get professional advice from a GP or dietitian.

5. What is the point of 'substitutes'? If we weren't meant to eat meat,  or milk, or eggs, then why are there replacements for them? Sure, you  could say it's for those who are adjusting, but all too often I hear  arguments that you don't have to gradually adjust to veganism, or  arguments that all of the animal based products are completely  unnatural and thus, unnecessary. It just seems stupid to me that milk  is supposedly unnatural, and that we shouldn't drink it, and yet,  there's an alternative to it.

I think these are just marketed as alternatives to make people more comfortable with them.
Afterall - "watery fluid made from beans" doesn't really have the same ring to it as Soya Milk does.

[Lucy Glitters]

From what I can see you don't get that many ARA's visiting here and being all too ready to answer questions.
You guys don't really make this the kind of place that ARA's want to hang out.
If you really want to genuinely know answers to these questions then maybe you'll have to visit "their" forums.

Probably. We have people who have a lot of frustration towards ARAs who have often attacked them or their livelihoods personally without giving reason for doing so, or even attempting to listen to their side. I don't blame them for wanting, or even demanding answers. However, I don't think every ARA who comes on here has to be culpable to answer for their movement, and no one on here willl absolutely squeeze the answers from you or anyone else. However, if an ARA on here is posting contradictory or otherwise inflammatory stuff without giving good reason, they should expect some backlash. Otherwise, ARAs are welcome on this board, and if they so choose, don't have to post anything regarding AR or AW.

PS- AR boards are not always friendly to this kind of debate. You'll probably find it easier to debate with a rock on a lot of them.

[Bazinga!!]

From what I can see you don't get that many ARA's visiting here and being all too ready to answer questions.
You guys don't really make this the kind of place that ARA's want to hang out.
If you really want to genuinely know answers to these questions then maybe you'll have to visit "their" forums.

Probably. We have people who have a lot of frustration towards ARAs who have often attacked them or their livelihoods personally without giving reason for doing so, or even attempting to listen to their side. I don't blame them for wanting, or even demanding answers. However, I don't think every ARA who comes on here has to be culpable to answer for their movement, and no one on here willl absolutely squeeze the answers from you or anyone else. However, if an ARA on here is posting contradictory or otherwise inflammatory stuff without giving good reason, they should expect some backlash. Otherwise, ARAs are welcome on this board, and if they so choose, don't have to post anything regarding AR or AW.

PS- AR boards are not always friendly to this kind of debate. You'll probably find it easier to debate with a rock on a lot of them.

I agree.

And now that there will not be, at least not on this board now, any censoring or changing OPs from ARA's, no matter their opinion or post, it hopefully will prove to be more inviting for them.

I've decided, unless something were to get so grossly out of hand, or was a blatant spam, I have no intention of censoring any posters on the guest board. For any reason.

[Merlin]

Fuck it. This is going on PETA2.