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Topic Summary

Posted by: Medium Rare
« on: October 28, 2011, 10:26 am »

You cannot be a true vegan and communicate it to the world without being a hypocrite.
Posted by: Winsor
« on: October 28, 2011, 06:55 am »

The correct definition of a veganism is as thus:
"..the word "veganism" denotes a philosophy and way of living which  seeks to exclude — as far as is possible and practical — all forms   of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any   other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of   animal-free alternatives for the benefit of humans, animals and the   environment."

Hitting a rabbit that runs in front of your car or standing on an insect in the garden doesn't equate with exploitation and cruelty.

But it can be argued that man 'raped' nature and put roads down for his convenience and that the animals are victims of such. Same with farming (crops). Made took nature and decided to plant crops where animals can eat it/hide in it...and in return the farmer will lay down poison, hire hunters, put down traps, and run them over with machinery, the latter possibly being the ONLY thing that man does not do on purpose....like hitting an animal with a car.
Posted by: McAvoy
« on: October 28, 2011, 02:30 am »

I hope not. Though I did on several occasions commit genocide against bees and other insects. Am I a bad person for it? ;)
Posted by: Jeni
« on: October 28, 2011, 01:59 am »

The correct definition of a veganism is as thus:
"..the word "veganism" denotes a philosophy and way of living which  seeks to exclude — as far as is possible and practical — all forms   of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any   other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of   animal-free alternatives for the benefit of humans, animals and the   environment."

Hitting a rabbit that runs in front of your car or standing on an insect in the garden doesn't equate with exploitation and cruelty.
Posted by: Winsor
« on: October 27, 2011, 10:41 pm »

Some vegans will argue that it's the fact they TRY which helps. Some just simply don't believe that animals die in the fields. Animals aren't stupid, they'd surely escape!

If some of these animals are so smart, how come I hit a dove, 2 chipmunks, a squirrel, a chickadee, a turkey, a seagull, and a family of ducks with my car? Escape my ass! I was going the speed limit, didn't purposely swerve to hit these animals (I can't afford a new car or serious damage to my car; why would I take the chance?) and in certain cases swerved to miss the animal and they still ran toward the tire (dove decided to take flight while under the car and hit the catalytic converter; 1 chipmunk I swerved for). The turkey ran off the fucking road, then back on the last second. The squirrel and chipmunk ran TO the car. The chickadee refused to fly from the road and when I drove over it (I didn't run over it), it decided to fly out at the wrong time. To be fair, the dove and the squirrel must have been dying before I hit them because from the distance, they both were not moving right. Note: I didn't kill all these animals at the same time...except for the ducks; I thought it was a branch that fell from the tree in the road and I couldn't swerve to miss it and saw only at the last moment that the 'branch' moved.

Quote
Then you may be forced to find some alternative for your kitten, whose food is mostly made of animals, killed in what-you-assume in a very painful manner. Eventually, unable to feel like yourself, you have to take vitamins to require what you're missing. You scan bottles of shampoo to make sure they weren't tested on animals.

Yet, if you really want to screw with them, ask them if the ingredients in the shampoo was tested on animals. I remember there was a diet pill out there (I think it was the one that Anna Nicole Smith advertised for) where it wasn't tested on animals, BUT one of the ingredients in the pill was tested on animals. 
Posted by: McAvoy
« on: October 27, 2011, 09:39 pm »

Some just take it way too far. Some are for all intents and purposes fanatics about their new religion. You are wrong and I am right thought process. Unable to use common sense or use their own judgement because they developed this superiority complex that can't except that, just maybe their new religion isn't as simple as they may think.
Posted by: Rayndrop
« on: October 27, 2011, 09:20 pm »

Some vegans will argue that it's the fact they TRY which helps. Some just simply don't believe that animals die in the fields. Animals aren't stupid, they'd surely escape! Others simply don't value insect life, or amphibian life. They're small and not as important as the bigger animals. There's a ton of excuses used to defend this one.

I think this issue - the issue of animals being killed in production - doesn't occur to most vegetarians or vegans. At first, the concept of not causing harm to another animal seemed simple. The solution? Do not support the purposeful "murder" of a fellow creature. Seems easy enough. Depending on your level of vegetarism, all you'd have to do is avoid chicken, ham, hot dogs, ect. But then it got harder. Than it became about avoiding milk and cheeses, and even yogurt. Then it got deeper. Not only would one have to avoid all of those listed above, they'd have to scan the labels of many products to ensure those products contained no animal-byproducts. Suddenly simple things like candy Skittles had to looked at, or Jell-o, because it has gelatin. Some vegetable broths could no longer be used for your soups because they 'may contain milk'.

Then you may be forced to find some alternative for your kitten, whose food is mostly made of animals, killed in what-you-assume in a very painful manner. Eventually, unable to feel like yourself, you have to take vitamins to require what you're missing. You scan bottles of shampoo to make sure they weren't tested on animals.

Veganism suddenly becomes much more complicated and complex. In this world, it doesn't take much to discover that there's simply no such thing as a true vegan. Unless you isolate yourself from society, pick a desolate places where you know no animal resides, choose (kinder) ways to keep critters from your house (unless you can live with them there), make your own garden and manage it in some manner where animals won't eat your personal plantation, you're simply not a vegan. Not in the term it was originally coined for.

It's much easier for them to just *think* or *tell themselves* they're helping without having to see the results. The act of "helping" makes them ethically at ease, even if they are still unknowingly exploiting animals.
Posted by: Medium Rare
« on: October 26, 2011, 09:40 am »

Quote
Rutgers School of Law professor Gary Francione argued in 2010 that “all sentient beings should have at least one right — the right not to be treated as property.”

Sentient according to whose definition? Extend that to all living things and we starve.
 
Someone wants to declare what is food to them, that is their issue, not mine, nor do I want someone else telling me what is my dinner. The "Disney mentality" can kiss my hiney. That does not mean that I am cruel to animals. My rule of thumb is you eat what you shoot. If I don't eat what I catch fishing, I release it. Don't tell me about hook pain, if it hurt that bad, a fish couldn't fight so hard.
 
Don't like factory farms, buy your food from the source. That is the only way you can ensure what you eat. You want to trust a grocery store that claims to sell organic. Go ahead.
Posted by: Winsor
« on: October 25, 2011, 08:13 pm »

Quote
Veganism dates back to 1944, when British Vegan Society co-founder Donald Watson coined the term to mean “non-dairy vegetarian.” The Society expanded the definition in 1951 to state that “man should live without exploiting animals.” Vegans eschew animal products in food, clothing, household products, or for any other reason.

There are a variety of reasons why people “go vegan.” Some simply don’t like the taste of meat. Some claim veganism is “green,” and that a vegan lifestyle minimizes impact on the environment.

In 1997, a survey revealed three percent of the people in the U.S. claimed that they had not used animals for any purpose in the previous two years. Rutgers School of Law professor Gary Francione argued in 2010 that “all sentient beings should have at least one right — the right not to be treated as property.”

Do ethical vegans live up to this stated standard? Do their actions live up to their own stated ethical principle, that animals have the right not to be treated as property? Do their actions really result in zero animal use? The parallel in human terms would be slavery, which no rational person thinks is ethically acceptable. Slaves are the property of masters; they live and die at their owner’s sufferance.

Unfortunately for the ethical vegan, the production of their food alone reduces their claim to impossibility. Animals are killed in untold millions, in the course of plant agriculture. Some are killed accidentally in the course of mechanized farming; some are killed deliberately in the course of pest control. Animals are killed, every day. Every potato, every stick of celery, every cup of rice, and every carrot has a blood trail leading from field to plate.

In 1999, while researching and writing Misplaced Compassion, I ran into a rice farmer who posted the following first-hand account on a Usenet forum:

    [A] conservative annualized estimate of vertebrate deaths in organic rice farming is ~20 pound. … [T]his works out a bit less than two vertebrate deaths per square foot, and, again, is conservative. For conventionally grown rice, the gross body-count is at least several times that figure. … [W]hen cutting the rice, there is a (visual) green waterfall of frogs and anoles moving in front of the combine. Sometimes the “waterfall” is just a gentle trickle (± 10,000 frogs per acre) crossing the header, total for both cuttings, other times it is a deluge (+50,000 acre).

My own family was involved in corn and soybean farming; our numbers were not that high, but they were not inconsiderable. Pheasants and rabbits are routinely killed in planting and harvesting, and rodents are killed by the thousands using traps and pesticides at every step: production, storage, and transportation.

Rational people know this and don’t worry about it. It’s an inevitable consequence of modern, high-production agriculture. The ethical vegan, when confronted with these undeniable facts, collapses. Their reaction, in almost every case, is to do a rhetorical lateral arabesque into a new claim, that their vegan diet somehow causes “less death and suffering” than a non-vegan diet, a ridiculous and unsupportable argument. A pound of wild venison (net cost in animal death: about 1/120th of one animal) almost certainly causes less “death and suffering” than a pound of rice (net cost in animal death: including rodents, insect, reptiles and amphibians, number of deaths may range into the hundreds).

But the numbers don’t really matter. Not if there is a real ethical principle involved. What is at the heart of this fall-back argument is this claim: That a vegan diet has a lower cost in animal death and suffering than any non-vegan diet.

If any ethical vegan has crunched the numbers to prove this, I have yet to see the results. However, the numbers have been crunched elsewhere, and it turns out that a non-vegan diet may well cause less environmental impact than a vegan diet, for one reason: Food for livestock can be grown on land that is too poor for growing crops for human consumption.

If there was an actual ethical principle involved, the ethical vegan would be required to do one of two things:

    • To analyze each of his or her sources of vegetable food and eat only those which are found to cause the least amount of animals to die.

    • Move off the grid and grow all of their own food, scrupulously using no insecticides, no rodent control measures, and no mechanized equipment.

Note that it is only the second path that has a chance of actually accomplishing zero animal deaths.

In reality, ethical vegans do none of these things. In the real world, the ethical vegan has no idea — none at all — whether their diet causes more animals to die, the same number, or fewer, than a diet which includes meat. Even when they engage in a completely irrational search for micrograms of animal material in their diet (I know of one vegan who refuses to eat black olives because squid ink is used in part to color them) their actions are purely symbolic; they have no idea what their real impact is. Instead, they obsess over micrograms of animal products in their food while ignoring the metric tons of animal life destroyed to bring that food to the table.

An ethical principle is usually a pretty simple thing. If the willful murder of another human is wrong, then it is wrong in every circumstance. Ethical vegans claim that taking the life of non-human animals is wrong, but their actions do not live up to the claim; indeed, they don’t even try. The ethical vegan follows no ethical principle. Instead, they follow a simple, easy, results-neutral, and ethically indifferent rule: Do not put animal parts in your mouth. It allows them a pretense of moral and ethical superiority with no real effort; it is a cheap and easy pose, nothing more.

In fact, ethical vegans exhibit a stunning and savage hypocrisy. Ethical vegans, as a class, fail utterly to put any of their professed ethics into action. They claim to not cause harm to animals, but they do; when confronted, they claim to cause less harm to animals than the non-vegan, but they are utterly unable to show that to be true, and are willing to take no real effort to even quantify their impact. They are intimately involved, every day, in an activity that causes the deaths of millions of animals, and they do nothing about it.

http://pjmedia.com/blog/the-myth-of-the-ethical-vegan/?singlepage=true

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPmb0F00YPE&amp;feature=related" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPmb0F00YPE&amp;feature=related</a>

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